149 contributions on record. Newest first, by sitting day. Page 2 of 4. Counted by Siambr
The Welsh Government is committed to establishing a national commission for Wales and is taking forward the final arrangements necessary for its establishment. I will make a further statement to Senedd Members in due course, setting out the commission’s remit, membership and next steps.
I thank the Member for the question. The case is very clearly made for the devolution of the Crown Estate. If you look over the past decade, there have been hundreds of millions of pounds of profits made by the Crown Estate in Wales. We believe that money should be invested in Wales and in Welsh energy and in supporting Welsh families and communities. The Welsh Government has established an expert group on the devolution of the Crown Estate and the future of the Crown Estate, which is building the evidence case. I expect a final report from the group to be published next summer. Then they will move forward to work on the broader issues of energy devolution.
As a Government, we recognise the value that trade unions bring to Government effectiveness. They provide structures for meaningful dialogue, negotiation and problem solving, enabling early intervention that saves time and money. Social partnership ensures workforce voices are heard early in decision making and remains the most effective way to address Wales's challenges.
As I said in my first response, this Government remains committed to social partnership. It is something that we believe in, in principle and on principle. There will be Members across this Chamber who have led organisations and who have managed organisations with trade unions and built effective relationships with those trade unions. We will make no apology for supporting trade unions, for working with them. There will be times, as everyone knows, when we will not see eye to eye on everything with those trade unions, but a strong and happy workforce is an effective workforce, and I'm proud to say that this Government will work with our trade union partners.
Well, I welcome the Member to his new position on the Reform frontbench. Had he been at a previous question time, he would have heard me say from this position that this Government is committed to delivering on its priorities for the people of Wales—on childcare, on child poverty, on the economy, on educational standards and on tackling waiting lists. Those are our priorities. That mission is underpinned by standing up for Wales, and we make no apology for seeking devolution of the Crown Estate, for the very reasons we've heard outlined earlier, for improving our rail services, and for making our communities safer by devolving policing. That is our agenda as a Government, as I set out in my oral statement on the priorities on the constitution.
There's a simple answer to that question, which is 'yes', because, as a Government, we are committed to outcomes. We have been critical of previous Governments who have poured money into projects and focused on inputs and outputs rather than outcomes that people can feel in their daily lives across the country. Part of my role is to challenge and to work with every one of my Cabinet colleagues to look at those Government programmes, to ensure that we are both getting value for taxpayers' money and ensuring that we're delivering outcomes for people right across Wales, whether that's on childcare, on the economy, on education—change that people can feel.
Again, I thank the Member for the question. This Government has a very limited set of bodies that it seeks to set up. There has been widespread debate about the national economic development agency. There is widespread consensus across this Chamber that the Welsh economy is not performing as it should, and an arm's-length, business-driven development agency is a clear way forward there. However, I share the Member's scepticism for the proliferation of bureaucracy, for more bodies for bodies' sake. You will be aware that the Government publishes the budget and the grant letter for every Government sponsored body on an annual basis. Where there are efficiencies to be gained, I will certainly pursue them. Thank you.
Diolch am y cwestiwn.
Thank you for the question.
I think what we're seeing across the public services in Wales is a legacy of a decade and more of austerity that has seen cuts and challenges, and public services that are genuinely facing crisis point. I am very pleased that my colleague the Minister for education has been engaging effectively with a range of teaching unions. There's been more progress with some than others. I said in my earlier answer that trade union colleagues and us will not always agree. Those negotiations are ongoing, and I'm sure we would all wish to see a positive conclusion to those negotiations. My colleague the Cabinet Minister for education has focused on raising standards in our schools, and if we are to achieve that, it must be done in collaboration and co-operation with both the teachers and those who lead our schools.
As my colleague will know full well, the Cabinet Minister for health is responsible for the health service and our health priorities, and has set out our approach and our encouragement to all of those partners in the debate in Cwm Taf, to reach a negotiated conclusion. We very much hope that will happen at the soonest time possible.
The point more generally about the NHS is an important one. People right across Wales are currently being let down by a service that has not invested significantly enough in tackling waiting lists. We have invested, as the First Minister said earlier, £145 million in bringing down waiting lists, because the impact of that on individuals, on families, on workplaces right across Wales is unconscionable, and those are our priorities as a Government.
One of the areas that we are looking at as a centralised Cabinet office in the Government is looking right across our Government priorities and ensuring that there is effective delivery on those and there is effective value for money. I know my colleague the Cabinet Minister for Finance has been engaging with Cabinet colleagues about their budgets for the year ahead, working closely with them to ensure that there is value for money at the heart of those programmes. Government effectiveness is about value for money, it is about delivering outcomes for people, and it comes back to the question posed earlier: if there are programmes that are not delivering measurable, tangible outcomes for people in communities right across Wales, then we should indeed reconsider them.
I think if anyone had seen the evidence from colleagues in the media, in BBC and in S4C, to the culture committee in Westminster and in other places on the challenges facing the media landscape, and the very real challenges facing the media landscape right across Wales, they would understand that broadcasting in Wales would be in a stronger place if it was indeed devolved. That is why this Government is committed to the devolution of broadcasting, so that we can have effective media, so that we can have effective scrutiny of this Government, amongst other things. That is what we support, and we make no apology for supporting that.
Diolch, Safa. Trustworthy statistics play a vital role in effective decision making across Wales. They help us understand where need is greatest, target resources effectively and judge whether outcomes are improving. As a Government, we are committed to using high-quality evidence to shape policy and delivery, and to publish clear outcomes that strengthen accountability.
Diolch yn fawr. The Member, from her professional background, speaks clearly from experience. I believe there is more work to be done in the NHS on improving productivity. I also believe that throwing money at a problem as a sticking plaster is not a long-term solution. Decisions should be informed by evidence on outcomes, value for money and long-term sustainability, not simply the upfront costs. Health economics is an important part of that evidence base, helping decision makers understand what delivers the best outcomes from available resources. For example, health economics is being used in our work as a Government to bring care closer to home, often referred to as Community by Design, including community resource teams, virtual wards, integrated community hubs for health and social care.
Diolch yn fawr. Thank you to the Member for their question. I also pay tribute to the work that she did in a previous life with TUC Cymru, doing very important work on behalf of trade unions in Wales. The focus of the question on recruitment and retention is an important one in the health service. There is work on a workforce strategy being undertaken currently, both by Welsh Government and our colleagues in Health Education and Improvement Wales. Getting these data right and planning for the long term is crucial, because we need the right staffing in the right places, with the right mix of skills, in order to deliver long-term, sustainable success for our health service.
I thank the Member for the question and for highlighting some of those very local issues. Clearly, I'm not abreast of the precise nature of the issues in Gwaun Cae Gurwen, but if the Member would like to write to myself or my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Minister for health, I'm sure we can look specifically at that.
I think there is a broader question here about how Government listens, takes concerns on board and what those avenues are for citizens right across the country to make progress when those concerns are not being listened to. We've heard various examples over the last hour or so from colleagues across this Chamber. It is something that we need to be clear about, and there is almost certainly a case for ensuring that that is as effective as possible, and it's one of those areas I'd be happy to look at.
I have regular discussions with the Cabinet Minister for Finance on public procurement and its contribution to the Welsh economy. These discussions have included strengthening Welsh supply chains, improving access to opportunities for Welsh businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises and social enterprises, and increasing expenditure with Wales-based suppliers towards our 70 per cent ambition.
I thank the Member for the question. The point is very well made. We need to support our small and medium-sized enterprises, and in my view, we can do more as a Government to support those small and medium-sized enterprises. We track supplier and contract award data through our procurement systems and business intelligence reporting and supplier information, including SME status where available, is drawn from core procurement platforms and analysed through departmental dashboards. And what this enables us to do is monitor the participation and success of SMEs in winning contracts, assess trends over time and identify opportunities to increase access to public sector procurement for local businesses.
Thank you very much.
Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given your permission for questions 5 and 9 to be grouped.
In my role, I am focused on strengthening delivery across Government. Through our programme for government, we have set clear priorities. I am working to keep our efforts focused on those priorities, support joined-up working and maintain a clear focus on outcomes.
I think Members should be very careful in this Chamber of accusing colleagues of misleading the Chamber or—
—misleading people. Our manifesto in the election, upon which we stood, upon which we fought the election and won the election, was based on prioritising bringing waiting lists down, on tackling waiting lists, prioritising the health service and developing productivity within the NHS. That is our priority and I will remain focused on that priority.
Thank you to the Member, and I'm very well aware of those thriving and important cross-border relationships in the north-east to the north-west of England, and also in the south-east to the south-west of England, and we support those important relationships.
I think the broader question relating to Government priorities is very clear in my mind. Our priorities are childcare, child poverty, the health service, schools and the economy. And on each of those, we intend to make progress. As the Cabinet Minister for the constitution, specifically charged with looking at constitutional issues, there are a range of areas—railways, the Crown Estate, policing—where I believe we can make progress, working with the UK Government, to deliver better services for people in Wales. And that remains the core focus of my work as a Government Minister and a core focus of our work as a Welsh Government—delivering better public services, whether it's in schools, health or education.
Wel, diolch yn fawr i'r Aelod am y cwestiwn, a dwi'n gwybod bod yntau wedi gwasanaethu'r NHS am flynyddoedd lawer, ac yn effeithiol iawn, yn Abertawe. Mae yna graidd i'r cwestiynau yma, onid oes, sef, gyda'r buddsoddiad ychwanegol mae'r Llywodraeth yma yn ei roi yng ngofal plant, yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn yr economi, mae angen canlyniadau i bobl. Ac felly, mae angen edrych yn fanwl iawn, fel mae'n cyfaill y Gweinidog Cabinet dros iechyd wedi'i wneud, ar beth yn union yw'r cynlluniau. Ydyn nhw'n gynlluniau sy'n mynd i ddelifro i'r tymor hir? Ydyn nhw'n sicrhau bod yna gydweithio rhwng y gwasanaeth iechyd a'r gwasanaeth gofal trwy awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau bod y pecyn gofal yn gyflawn, i sicrhau bod rhai o'r heriau sydd yn y system yn cael eu hannerch? Ydyn nhw'n edrych, fel y gwnaeth fy nghydweithwraig gynnau fach gyfeirio atyn nhw, i'r hirdymor gyda'r gweithlu? Mae'r holl faterion yna'n gorfod dod at ei gilydd, a gofyn y cwestiwn bob tro: ydy'r arian yma yn mynd i wneud newid go iawn yn yr hirdymor, nid jest am y tymor byr? Diolch yn fawr.
Well, I thank the Member very much for the question, and I know that he has served the NHS for many years, and very effectively, in Swansea. There is a common theme to these questions, isn't there, that, with this additional funding that the Government's providing in childcare, in the health service, in the economy, we need outcomes for the people of Wales. And therefore, we need to look in great detail, as my colleague the Cabinet Minister for health has done, at what exactly those plans are. Are they plans that will deliver for the longer term? Do they ensure that there is collaboration between the health service and the care service provided through local authorities in order to ensure that the care package is complete, to ensure that some of the challenges in the system are addressed? Do they look, as our colleague earlier referred to, to the longer term with the workforce? So, all of those issues have to coalesce, and we always have to ask the question as to whether this money is going to deliver real change in the long term, not just in the short term. Thank you.
Ein hasesiad ni yw y dylai Cymru gael y pwerau sydd eu hangen i gyflawni dros bobl Cymru, gwella gwasanaethau a chryfhau atebolrwydd. Rŷn ni yn pwyso am setliad tecach i Gymru. Byddai Bil Cymru newydd yn darparu'r ffordd gliriaf a mwyaf effeithiol o wneud y newidiadau y cytunir arnynt.
Our assessment is that Wales should have the powers that it needs to deliver for the people of Wales, improve services and strengthen accountability. We are pressing for a fairer settlement for Wales. A new Wales Bill would provide the clearest way and the most effective way of implementing agreed changes.
Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n credu bod yr Aelod yn gofyn i fi ymrwymo i bwyso ar Lywodraeth Prydain i sicrhau cynnydd. Dwi'n gwneud yr ymrwymiad hwnnw yn glir ac yn hapus. Dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n werth adrodd wrth y Senedd fod fy nghyfarfodydd cychwynnol i gyda Gweinidogion Cabinet o Lywodraeth Prydain wedi bod yn adeiladol ac yn gydweithredol. Wrth gwrs, wrth i'r trafodaethau fynd yn eu blaen, fe ddown ni i mewn i'r manylion. Ond dwi yn awyddus i bwysleisio bod yr ymateb sydd wedi dod hyd yn hyn wedi bod yn gadarnhaol, ac felly dwi'n gobeithio y bydd hynny yn sail i gynnydd pellach.
Thank you. I believe the Member is asking me to commit to press the UK Government to secure progress. I make that clear commitment this afternoon, and I do so happily. I think it's worth reporting to the Senedd that my initial meetings with UK Cabinet Ministers have been constructive and collaborative. Of course, as the discussions develop, we will get into the minutiae. But I am eager to emphasise that the response that I've received to date has been positive, and I therefore hope that that will be the basis for further progress.
The Welsh Government will work closely with partners at a local and regional level to ensure that decision making and service delivery take place in ways that support effective delivery of public services.
Well, I'm delighted to see that the Welsh Conservatives are now in favour of the single transferrable vote. I should encourage everyone—[Interruption.] I should encourage everyone in this—[Interruption.] Well, that is the best way—[Interruption.] That is the best way—[Interruption.] That is the best way to ensure effective accountability, and I hope in due course that every Member of the Senedd will support such a development of the Welsh electoral system.
Mae'r heriau mwyaf sy'n wynebu Cymru yn galw am ymateb ar draws y Llywodraeth gyfan. Dyna pam mae ein rhaglen lywodraethu yn nodi uchelgais newydd i Gymru, wedi'i seilio ar flaenoriaethau a rennir yn hytrach nag ar seilos adrannol. Dwi'n gweithio'n agos iawn gyda chydweithwyr reit ar draws y Cabinet i sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn cydweithio ar draws portffolios er mwyn sicrhau canlyniadau ystyrlon i bobl ledled Cymru.
The greatest challenges facing Wales demand a whole-Government response. That is why our programme for government sets out a new ambition for Wales, based on shared priorities rather than departmental silos. I work closely with colleagues right across the Cabinet to ensure that the Government collaborates across portfolios to ensure meaningful outcomes for people across Wales.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r Aelod am y cwestiwn, a dwi'n talu teyrnged i'r gwaith mae hi wedi'i wneud, ac eraill yn y Siambr hon, ar sail drawsbleidiol, i ddatblygu ein dealltwriaeth ni o'r effaith mae trawma yn ei gael ar blant ac, yn wir, ar y sawl sy'n oedolion sydd wedi profi trawma yn blant. Trwy fframwaith Cymru sy'n ystyriol o drawma, cefnogaeth Hyb ACE Cymru a chydweithio agos ar draws portffolios gweinidogol, rŷm ni'n ymgorffori dulliau sy'n ystyriol o adverse childhood experiences a thrawma ar draws datblygu polisïau a darparu gwasanaethau.
Mae atal profiadau niweidiol yn ystod plentyndod ac ymateb yn effeithiol i drawma yn gyfrifoldeb a rennir ar draws y Llywodraeth a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae'n ddull gweithredu wedi ei gynllunio i sicrhau bod y gwaith yn cael ei gydlynu, yn hytrach na'i adael i adrannau a sefydliadau unigol i weithredu ar eu pennau eu hunain. Dyna'n huchelgais, Lywydd. Fy ngobaith i fel rhan o fy rôl i yw sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd. Mae'r uchelgais honno, sydd wedi'i rhannu gan Lywodraethau yn y gorffennol, heb o reidrwydd bob tro wedi cael ei gweithredu ar lawr gwlad, a dyna fyddwn i'n dymuno canolbwyntio arno.
I thank the Member for the question, and I pay tribute to the work that she has carried out, and others in the Chamber, on a cross-party basis, to develop our understanding of the impact that trauma does have on children and, indeed, on adults who have experienced trauma as children. Through the trauma-informed Wales framework and the support of ACE Hub Wales and close collaboration across ministerial portfolios, we're implementing approaches informed by adverse childhood experiences and trauma across the development of policies and the provision of services.
Preventing ACEs and responding effectively to trauma is a responsibility that's shared across the Government and public services. Our approach has been planned to ensure that the work is co-ordinated, rather than left to individual organisations and departments to implement themselves. That's our ambition, Llywydd. My hope as part of my role is to ensure that that does happen. That ambition, which was shared by Governments of the past, hasn't always been implemented at grass-roots level, and that's what I would wish to focus on.
This Government’s position is clear: policing should be fully devolved to Wales. The Dirprwy Brif Weinidog and I have met with the policing Minister to discuss devolution and other policing priorities. I've also had an introductory meeting with the Secretary of State for Wales.
I thank the Member for the question. I'm not entirely sure that he is convinced of a record of failings after five months. I should probably remind him that another party was in Government for 27 years, and if he wants to address—[Interruption.] If he wants to address questions to Members of that party, I'm sure he can do so afterwards in the tea room.
Our focus as a Government is on delivery, on schools, on childcare, on child poverty, on the NHS and on the economy. We have identified that there is a programme of policing reform taking place now for the England and Wales jurisdiction, led by the Home Office. There is an opportunity there to make the case for greater devolution for Wales, for greater responsibility for the Welsh Government, which will make communities in Wales safer, and that is what we will pursue.
Mae’r rhaglen lywodraethu a'n hamcanion llesiant yn un fframwaith gweithredu sy’n cysylltu'r blaenoriaethau mae pobl wedi ymddiried ynom i’w cyflawni a’r canlyniadau hirdymor yn y Ddeddf rydym am eu cyflawni. Dwi hefyd wedi cytuno i adolygiad o'r Ddeddf, gan ganolbwyntio ar wella’r ffordd mae’r Ddeddf yn cael ei gweithredu.
The programme for government and our well-being objectives are a single framework for action, linking the priorities people have entrusted us to deliver and the long-term outcomes of the Act that we want to achieve. I've also agreed to a review of the Act, focusing on enhancing the Act’s implementation in practice.
Diolch yn fawr i'r Aelod am y cwestiwn. Mae yna ymrwymiad clir gan y Llywodraeth yma i hybu diwylliant a chwaraeon. Mae yna strategaeth diwylliant a chwaraeon newydd dan ofal y Gweinidog Cabinet dros Ddiwylliant a Chwaraeon a'r Trefnydd. Mae yna ffocws clir gan y Llywodraeth hon ar hybu a hyrwyddo chwaraeon a diwylliant, ond hefyd cydnabod, fel rŷch chi wedi nodi, y rôl bwysig mae diwylliant a chwaraeon yn gallu ei chael ar draws ystod polisi cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys yr agenda iechyd ataliol, sy'n bwysig iawn i'r Llywodraeth hon. Diolch yn fawr.
I thank the Member for that question. There is a clear commitment from this Government to promote culture and sport. There is a new culture and sport strategy, which is being led by the Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport and Trefnydd. There is a clear focus from this Government on promoting sport and culture, whilst also recognising, as you have set out, the important role that culture and sport can have across a range of public policies, including the preventative health agenda, which is hugely important to this Government. Thank you.
Yn ffurfiol, Lywydd.
Formally, Llywydd.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. A gaf i atgoffa pawb yn y Siambr hon bod hon yn ddadl sydd wedi'i alw gan Reform UK? Roedd Prif Weinidog Cymru ddoe yn siarad am iechyd, am ofal plant, am yr economi. Reform UK sy'n dewis canolbwyntio ar faterion cyfansoddiadol.
Ond mae gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn un syml—a dwi'n falch i glywed bod yna gefnogaeth iddo fe mewn mwy nag un plaid ar lawr y Siambr yma—sef y dylai pobl Cymru benderfynu ar ddyfodol cyfansoddiadol ein gwlad. Fel rŷn ni wedi'i glywed heddiw, mae gan Aelodau o'r Senedd hon farn wahanol am ble y dylai Cymru fod yn y pen draw yn gyfansoddiadol. Mae'r gwahaniaethau hynny yn gwbl ddilys mewn deddfwrfa ddemocrataidd. Ond dwi'n gobeithio y gallwn ni i gyd gytuno ar ddau beth: y dylai dyfodol Cymru gael ei benderfynu'n ddemocrataidd gan bobl Cymru, ac yn ail, y dylai Cymru gael y pwerau, yr adnoddau a'r offer sydd eu hangen i gyflawni dros bobl yma ac yn awr. Yr egwyddorion hyn sy'n sail i welliant y Llywodraeth heddiw. Dyw ein gwelliant ni ddim yn gofyn i Aelodau roi'r gorau i'w barn; mae'n gofyn i ni gydnabod egwyddor y gobeithiaf y gall ennyn cefnogaeth ar draws y Siambr, a dyw e ddim yn safbwynt pleidiol.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I remind everyone in this Chamber that this is a debate that has been called by Reform UK? The First Minister yesterday was talking about health, about childcare, about the economy. Reform UK has chosen to focus on constitutional issues.
But the Government's amendment is a simple one—and I'm pleased to hear that there is support for it from more than one party on the floor of this Chamber—which is that the people of Wales should determine the constitutional future of our country. As we have heard today, Members of this Senedd have different views about where Wales should be constitutionally, and those differences are completely valid in a democratic legislature. But I do hope that we can all agree on two things: that Wales's future should be determined democratically by the people of Wales, and secondly, that Wales should have the powers, the resources and the tools that it needs to deliver on behalf of people here and now. It is these principles that are the basis of the Government's amendment today. Our amendment doesn't ask Members to give up their views; it asks us to acknowledge a principle that hopefully will gain support from across the Chamber, and it is not a party political viewpoint.
The principle is one that has been widely recognised.
'National aspirations must be respected; peoples may...be...governed only by their own consent.'
That was Woodrow Wilson to Congress in 1918. The self-determination of peoples is in the first article of the UN charter. Talking of our Scottish friends,
'as a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination'.
I didn't expect myself to be quoting Baroness Thatcher approvingly in this Chamber, but she was right, of course—on that matter. [Interruption.] Wait for it. But we must put the people at the heart of constitutional change, because the UK is a 'voluntary nation of nations'—Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, in the commission on the UK's future. And yesterday, the Scottish Parliament agreed that
'the Parliament agrees that Scotland...has a right to decide its own future.'
Os oes un wers o'r chwarter canrif diwethaf o ddatganoli, dyma hi: dyw'r setliad cyfansoddiadol ddim yn sefyll yn ei hunfan. Mi ddywedodd rhywun rhywle fod datganoli yn broses, ddim yn ddigwyddiad. Nid y cwestiwn yw a fydd newid cyfansoddiadol yn digwydd; y cwestiwn yw sut y gallwn sicrhau bod Cymru yn barod ar gyfer y newid hwnnw, yn gallu dylanwadu arno ac yn elwa ohono. I'r Llywodraeth hon, mae hynny'n golygu diwygiadau ymarferol sy'n ein helpu ni i sicrhau canlyniadau gwell i bobl ar lawr gwlad ac i gymunedau. Nid mater damcaniaethol yn unig yw diwygio cyfansoddiadol; mae'n sicrhau bod gennym y pwerau, yr adnoddau a'r offer i gyflawni dros bobl Cymru.
If there is one lesson to learn from the last quarter of a century of devolution, it is this: the constitutional settlement is not static. Someone somewhere said that devolution is a process, not an event. The question is not will constitutional change happen; the question is how can we ensure that Wales is ready for that change, can influence it and benefit from it. For this Government, that means practical changes that help us to ensure better results and outcomes for people on the ground and for communities. This is not a theoretical matter, that's not what constitutional change is; it is ensuring that we have the powers, the resources and the tools to deliver for the people of Wales.
That's why our priorities in terms of devolution are clear. We made the case for progress on devolving rail infrastructure, on justice and policing, and on the Crown Estate. These are areas where there is substantial evidence, significant public interest and support that reaches well beyond a single political party. They will lead to a better train service, to lower energy bills, to safer communities—real changes to people's lives here in Wales. I've been heartened by the positive approach from the UK Government in response to those calls, and I hope we can conclude those discussions constructively.
Our objective isn't to move powers between institutions, but to ensure responsibilities sit at the level where they can be exercised most effectively and deliver the best outcomes for people and communities. And let me be clear to my colleagues here: it does indeed mean decentralisation within Wales as part of that package. We are decentralists in Plaid Cymru and we believe in those principles as a key area for us.
Turning to some of the points made in the debate, I do reflect there is a certain irony, particularly from colleagues opposite, in their support for the free movement of goods, capital, services and people, and of a large union that would bring all of those freedoms together. I would remind people that that was voted upon some years ago, and it remains our position that Wales would be better off in such a large European union.
There have also been points about the proud history of Wales, the proud history of Wales in the industrial revolution. And yet we have also heard from the benches opposite that that great nation that powered the industrial revolution—and we've heard of its great success—has fiscal challenges today. That is the legacy of the British state. We've heard about Slovenia, which saw a growth of 33 per cent in its gross domestic product in 10 years. We've heard about other countries who've seen growth far in excess of the Welsh context—successful independent countries—in this debate here.
But let's return to the fundamental point of our amendment and of this debate, in the view of the Government. Members here will disagree as to where Wales should ultimately be heading, but I do sincerely hope that we can agree on some basic fundamentals: that Wales's future should be determined democratically, and that change should be informed by evidence, not assertion. The public debate is stronger when it includes a wide range of voices and perspectives, and it is our shared responsibility to ensure that Wales has the confidence, the capacity and the tools to shape its own future. The people of Wales, Llywydd, are sovereign. It is for us to determine our future, wherever that may lead us. Diolch yn fawr.
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