Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Minister, in the supplementary budget that was announced yesterday, there was an extra £2 million given for school swimming, something that I and my party wholeheartedly support, because we need to make sure that more young people are learning to swim, especially as we're seeing the rise of cold water swimming and people, especially in this hot weather, jumping into rivers and the like. We need to make sure people can swim. What I'd like to know, though, Cabinet Secretary, what additional money is going to go wider than the £2 million into sport? I know this is something that you've spoken on in the past. I would just like to know if there is any other on top of the £2 million that will be given to the sport budget this year.
Contributions
71 contributions on record. Newest first, by sitting day. Page 2 of 2. Counted by Siambr
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Thank you, Cabinet Minister. As you talked about cross-portfolio work, one thing that has become clear is access to sports facilities. If we want more people taking up sport and physical activity, they need to have access to good facilities. One thing that I will give the Government in the past credit for is the twenty-first century schools programme, which did develop good sports facilities within those schools that were built. But what we see is that, after school, those gates are closed and the communities have no access to those sports facilities. I'd like to know what work you're doing across the Government with the Cabinet Minister for education to allow those young people—and not just young people, but all the community—access to those sports facilities in school, so that we can increase participation across our communities.
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I agree, but one thing we need to see is pace in this. When are we going to see those facilities being open to communities? Because we've had these conversations before. I know that you and I have discussed this in this Chamber in the past, and it's been something that the previous Government talked about, I think, for five years, but never actually got on top of. A lot of our governing bodies and sports clubs across the country are crying out for access to these facilities. Talking is good, but it needs to have some tangible action of when that's going to happen. Can you, today, outline a timetable of when you think that those clubs will have access to those school facilities? Because we need to get this sorted sooner rather than later. I can imagine us having this conversation in four years' time in the lead-up to the next Senedd election.
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Diolch, Lywydd. I formally move our amendment, tabled in the name of Llŷr Powell. The motion before us is very clear: it calls on the Welsh Government to rule out hospital closures and the downgrading of hospital services for the duration of this Senedd. That matters to people across Wales who are worried about the future of local health services. That concern is felt in north Wales, west Wales, our Valleys, towns and cities and in our rural communities across the country. For patients, this is about whether services will be there when they need them. It's about whether emergency departments and minor injuries units, maternity services, diagnostics, planned care or local treatment will continue to be available, and it's about whether people can have confidence that the services they use today will not be weakened tomorrow. I accept that the NHS cannot stand still. Services do need to change over time. Clinical practice changes, technology changes. No-one is saying that every service can or should be delivered in exactly the same way forever—that would be totally irresponsible, because patient safety must also come first. If there are genuine clinical concerns about a service, they have to be taken seriously and we'll support the Labour amendment that mentions patient safety. But there is a difference between improving a service and downgrading it. There is a difference between making a service safer and taking it further away from the people who rely on it. And there is a difference between reform and managed decline. Too often, communities are told that the service changes are temporary. They are told it's because of staffing pressures, estate issues and the need to review how care is delivered. But people have heard all that before. They all know that a temporary change means it's becoming permanent in the end, and that is where trust breaks down. Because people are not against improvements. They're not against better services. What they object to is being told that a service is going to be improved when in reality it's going to be reduced. And if the Welsh Government does not support this motion, then it needs to be honest about what that means. Is it prepared to leave the door open to the possibility of hospital closures during this Senedd? And is it prepared to leave open the possibility of the further downgrading of services? I think that's what the Government amendment means, for everyone to see. And if so, our communities deserve to know that clearly from the Cabinet Minister today, because the answer to fragile services should not be simply about being able to move them elsewhere; the answer should be to fix the problems that made them fragile in the first place. And I know the Cabinet Minister and I share some common ground on how we intend to do that. That's the kind of reform that Wales needs. But time will tell if this Government is up to the challenge of reforming our health service. But we also need to be honest about the NHS estate. The maintenance backlog is not just a number in the budget paper; it affects wards, it affects theatres and it affects the day-to-day working environment of our NHS staff and it can affect the safety, capacity and whether services can be delivered properly. We were very clear in our manifesto that we wanted to get the maintenance backlog down. We didn't commit, like other parties, to building unfunded hospitals, because we thought that was a reckless thing to do and a lie to the public of this country when they're unfunded. So, we will not be supporting the final Labour amendment to this motion, because we do not think that it's something that can be delivered. But I would like to hear from the Cabinet Minister as to how the Government is going to address the maintenance backlog. There has been some money allocated to it, but he knows as well as I do that that is a complete drop in the ocean to what is required to bring our NHS estate back up to where it needs to be. But I will ask the Cabinet Minister very clearly: will this Welsh Government rule out hospital closures and downgrades during this Senedd term, or will it not? Care closer to home has to mean properly funded, properly staffed services. It cannot mean reduced services and expecting GPs, community nurses and our social care staff and our unpaid carers to pick up the pressures. Equitable access cannot mean patients being expected to travel further because services have been centralised further away from them. And if that is the Government's view, then it needs to put an appropriate transport policy in place to allow people to travel. And I hope that the Deputy Minister for Transport is listening very clearly on that. But I will say finally that people do want straight answers. They want to know: is that local hospital service going to be there? Is it going to be downgraded? Because if that is the option, I think the Cabinet Minister needs to be honest with people today, because I think their motion doesn't set out exactly what this Government is planning. Diolch.
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Do you see the benefit of the prevention agenda, though, and the rehabilitation of people and how sport and physical activity can actually help with that to get people fit and ready for their operations? That does fit, in part, with the cultural budget as well. I just wondered if you recognise that.
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Will the Member take an intervention?
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Thank you. Do you not recognise, though, that farming by calendar doesn't work? What you can have is a very dry period during the closed period when farmers cannot spread slurry, but then in the open period they could actually go spreading when it's pouring down with rain, which is totally irresponsible. So, actually, a more farming-based approach that the Minister actually, in fairness, is moving to is probably the better way to deal with this in the long run, and it was actually recommended in the Bolton review.
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Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Although my committee has not met yet, I'd just like to say that I am speaking in a personal capacity, not that of the committee. The motion calls for a Welsh rivers Act to address sewage discharge accountability, support catchment-wide nutrient management and reward measurable outcomes in water quality. The evidence shows why this is needed. Natural Resources Wales water quality assessments show that only 40 per cent of water bodies in Wales are at good or better overall status. For rivers specifically, the figure is at 43 per cent. That means the majority of river water bodies in Wales are still not meeting good overall status. We have seen some progress in some areas, and that should be acknowledged, but the overall picture is still not good enough. The position on protected rivers is also concerning. In Welsh special areas of conservation, only 40 per cent of assessed water bodies passed phosphorus targets in the most recent assessments. There have been improvements in places, including parts of the Usk and Wye, but NRW also records the failures across a number of those SAC catchments. We also need to be honest about sewage discharges. Storm overflows are part of an old Victorian combined sewer system. They're designed to operate in certain circumstances, particularly during heavy rainfall, to prevent sewage backing up into people's homes and businesses. The issue is not that every single discharge is automatically unlawful; the issue is frequency, duration, environmental harm and whether water companies are being properly held to account when systems are not performing as they should. NRW's storm overflow report says that there are over 2,000 permitted storm overflows in Wales, and NRW's own figures show that only 7 per cent of permitted storm water overflows in Wales did not spill at all in 2024, while 15 per cent spilled between 100 and 299 times. That is not a position that any of us should accept as normal. We also know that Dŵr Cymru's performance has been a serious concern. NRW reported that the company was responsible for 155 pollution incidents, including 132 from sewerage assets. Those figures show why accountability has to be central to any Welsh rivers Act. It should not be enough for companies to publish data after the event. There should be clear duties, clear reporting, independent auditing of discharge data and clear consequences when performance falls short. The public should also be able to see not just how often overspills happen, but what is being done about it, when the improvements are being delivered and whether those improvements are making a difference to water quality. But this motion also is right to go beyond sewerage. If we're serious about improving rivers, we have to look at the whole catchment. Pollution and nutrient pressures come from a range of sources—waste water, urban run-off, highways, legacy mine pollution, septic tanks, development pressures and land use across the catchment. If we only focus on one source, we will never solve the problem. That is why catchment-wide nutrient—[Interruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention, Mike.
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Yes. This is why catchment-wide nutrient management matters. The Bolton review into the control of agricultural pollution regulations is clear; it recognises the need for a more evidence-based, proportionate and risk-focused approach. This is important because farmers should not be treated as the default problem whenever river quality is discussed. Many farmers are already working hard to improve soil health, manage nutrients carefully, protect watercourses and invest in better infrastructure. They live and work alongside these rivers, and that's why they want clean water as much as anybody else. A Welsh rivers Act should recognise that farmers and land managers are a part of the solution and are not the problem. That means moving away from blanket approaches that punish many of them for their actions and don't actually do anything about dealing with the polluters, who sometimes base that into their profit and loss margins. They're the people who need to be addressed. Where there are genuine problems, they should be dealt with, but that should be based on evidence, local conditions and a proper source of—. I can't say that word. Not assumptions. My staff are putting words in here that I can't even read. A Welsh rivers Act could provide that framework, I think, going forward. I think it's very important that all Members across this Chamber today support this motion. It needs cross-party support. I do not think there's any need to play party politics with this. Let's just get this done and let's start cleaning up our rivers.
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I thank you, First Minister, for your answer. You mentioned there cross-border healthcare. You’ve announced £140 million to address waiting lists, but the previous Welsh Government brought forward £120 million to address waiting lists, and only £115,000 of that ended up in Powys Teaching Health Board, which was 0.1 per cent of the overall funding allocation. So, I want some sort of assurance from you today that Powys Teaching Health Board will receive more than what it did last time, so we can actually address the cross-border issue. As you know, my constituents are forced to have their care delayed in England due to decisions that the health board take to actually balance their budget, so I'd like to hear from you today that more money will be going to Powys Teaching Health Board so my constituents do not have to wait longer for healthcare when there is capacity over the border in England.
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I'd like to register a declarable interest. Minister, you and I have both warned, for a number of years, about the reduction of our livestock, across the numbers and the critical numbers coming through our abattoirs, as was raised by Andrew R.T. Davies about the job losses at Kepak, which is one of our biggest abattoirs in the country. I'm interested, Cabinet Minister, are you going to be convening a meeting of all the processors in Wales to discuss this issue and how the Government can respond to it? Because we do not want to see job losses at our abattoirs across Wales. We've lost too many small abattoirs across our country as it is. Will you also be calling Hybu Cig Cymru to account on this as well, to make sure that they can respond to this? Because there's not a lot of faith in them in the industry. If we are going to see faith restored, this is the sort of issue that they need to be stepping up to the plate over. I'd like your thoughts on these matters. Thank you.
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Can I thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement? There is very little in the statement, I think, that anyone would disagree with—with its principle. We all want shorter waiting lists, better access to GPs, care closer to home, stronger prevention, better use of digital technology, and a workforce that is properly supported. But the problem is that patients across Wales have heard these promises time and time before. What they need now is delivery. And I also gently say to the Cabinet Minister that he should be careful with the suggestion that other parties do not believe in the NHS. We all value the NHS and the principles that it's founded on. The issue is not whether we believe in it, but whether this Welsh Plaid Cymru Government is prepared to reform it, challenge poor performance and ensure that money reaches the front line and is not stuck in back-office functions. The statement refers to £145 million for waiting times. Can the Cabinet Minister confirm today how much will each health board receive, what specialities will be prioritised and what measurable reductions will patients expect to see within the next six months? Because you and the First Minister have said that two-year waits will disappear within a matter of months. You've had a number of opportunities to respond to that, and I still don't think we've received a reply. On surgical hubs, I welcome the direction of travel, but, again, we need the detail. Where will these hubs be located? When will the first one be operational? And how will the Government ensure that rural patients are not left travelling even further for treatment? And can he confirm today how much he estimates they will actually cost? Because £40 million of capital won't go very far. The Cabinet Minister also talks about shifting resources into primary and community care, but the 0.5 per cent annual increase does not begin until 2027. And I ask: why is the Government waiting until then, when GP access is already a major problem? In rural areas, where many people in this Chamber represent, people are struggling to get appointments, practices are under pressure and patients are often travelling long distances for basic care. And I'll give you another opportunity today: when you sat on the Health and Social Care Committee, you endorsed all the recommendations that the committee put forward to improve GP access in Wales. So, I'll give you the opportunity today: will you today accept all those recommendations and not reject a single one of them? Because you were one of the founding Members who put them forward. Can the Cabinet Minister also explain how the shift from secondary to primary care will be delivered without destabilising already stretched hospitals? And can he tell me what discussions has he had with health boards about this plan? Moving care closer to home is the right ambition, but it cannot just mean transferring pressures from one part of the system to another without the workforce, funding and infrastructure in place to deliver it. On workforce, the statement refers to summits, feedback and, yes, the usual plans and next steps, but graduates and NHS staff need more than meetings—what they need is concrete action. So, will this Government commit to publishing that workforce plan this side of Christmas that matches the training places to actual jobs here in Wales? And I hope it'll be soon, and I hope we don't get the reply, 'It will be coming in a matter of months.' Finally, the statement refers to national oversight and performance, so will the Cabinet Minister confirm whether this means real accountability for health boards that fail to deliver, and whether Ministers will intervene earlier when performance is not good enough or when they're not listening to what you have told them? And if executives are not delivering the change that you want to see, will you then bring forward a regulatory change here to allow you more direct intervention when senior managers fail to deliver on your asks and priorities? Because what we see, Cabinet Minister, is that patients do not need more warm words here in Wales; they need those GP appointments, they need operations, they need cancer treatment and diagnostics and social care packages that deliver on time. So, I do welcome the ambition because we do share some common ground on how we want to change the NHS, but we need to see actual, real delivery. We can't have more plans, we can't have more strategies. People need to see real investment and real changes now. And if you could answer my questions, I would greatly appreciate it. Diolch, Presiding Officer.
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Diolch, Weinidog Cabinet, am y datganiad heddiw.
Official English translation
Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for your statement today.
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Gweinidog, I never thought I'd find the day that you and I would agree on quite a lot of what's in your statement. I do agree with the need for investment in sport, because we do know that that is a key part of the prevention agenda, but warm words in a statement are cheap if they don't actually mean how much money is going to come through. So, I'm actually interested, Gweinidog, in how much of a proportion of the NHS budget have you and the Minister for finance and the Minister for health and care identified to move into the sports budget. Because we've heard a lot today about money being moved, but I think a lot of the sports organisations listening to today's proceedings would like to know exactly what proportion that's going to be. If you look at Scotland, for example, which is something I've heard you and the Minister for care reference during hustings, to match that, that's £80 million-worth of investment that Scotland put into sport. Is it your ambition to match that, and when can the sport sector in Wales see that inward investment into their sector here in Cymru?
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Cabinet Minister, during the previous Senedd, we brought forward the greyhound racing ban here in the Senedd and I know that, at the time, you had concerns about that piece of legislation, about it being rushed and perhaps not looking at the fullness of the legislation. I'm just wondering: now, in your new role, will you do some post-legislative scrutiny on that piece of work to make sure that it's in the best place possible and that there are no unintended consequences of this ban going forward on the welfare of greyhounds in Wales?
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Diolch, Lywydd. I'd like to raise a point of order that, during the debate, I believe that Kiera Marshall described the motion tabled in a way that does not reflect what it actually says, and has deliberately misled the Senedd on what has been tabled before us. Of course, Members are entitled to disagree and make political points, but could you please advise how Members can make sure that the record is clear when the wording of the motion has been misrepresented in this Chamber?
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Diolch, Lywydd. Trefnydd, I'd like two statements, please. First, I'd like a written statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care on waiting lists. We've heard a number of weeks in this Chamber now that waiting lists will be eradicated—our longest waits—in a matter of months. I'd like to know how many months that's going to be and how that's going to impact people who are accessing their care in England. So, a written statement actually setting out a timetable would be very useful for me and, I'm sure, for other Members in this Chamber. I'd also like a second statement, please, from you as the Minister with responsibility for sport. In Powys County Council, the Liberal Democrat administration are doing a review into leisure services. In the past, they've called for closing swimming pools and also closing leisure centres, and that goes, really, contrary to what you have said in the past about the prevention agenda and making sure we've got services closer to people's homes. So, I'd like a statement from the Government about what support you're going to provide for leisure services in our communities.
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I'd like to welcome the Cabinet Minister to her position. One part of your portfolio is the development of national significance. We've seen in my own constituency the Nant Mithil planning application for large-scale wind turbines—that's had huge local opposition. But we've seen in the past that ideology can overtake actual planning decisions. If we look at Hendy windfarm, for example, Planning and Environment Decisions Wales said 'no', local people said 'no', the local planning department said 'no', but a Welsh Labour Minister approved the planning application, putting ideology ahead of facts. So, I'm just interested, Cabinet Minister, in how you intend to take developments of national significance forward. Will you listen to the advice of local planning authorities, the views of local people and PEDW in your considerations? And will you not go against their planning advice, if it is given to you? Diolch.
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I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister for your statement. It's a shame the title said 'key infrastructure resilience' when it's only really covered two parts of infrastructure, but I'd just like to ask, other parts of infrastructure resilience are things like the A470, which goes through my constituency, and there were key safety upgrades planned for that piece of infrastructure by the previous Government. I was just interested, are those things that your Government are going to continue, or are they something you're going to scrap?
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First Minister, over two decades, the Welsh suckler herd has fallen by over 40 per cent here in Wales, and that's put a huge pressure on our critical mass of livestock numbers. We've seen it in our abattoirs across the country. With the numbers dropping, that puts huge pressure on jobs and future security for those abattoirs. Your party in the past has supported the Climate Change Committee's recommendations on lowering livestock numbers. So, can you today—? You have, First Minister; I've seen you support policies in this Chamber on it. I see you indicating that you don't agree with me. First Minister, I want to know clearly, and I'm sure the agricultural community do as well, what is your Government going to do to make sure we increase the number of livestock units across Wales to safeguard our food security and make sure we protect jobs in our abattoirs across Wales?
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Can I thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement today and welcome him to his new role? I’d like to take this opportunity to thank all our NHS staff and health and social care staff across Wales. Health and care is one of the greatest responsibilities any Minister can hold, because behind every statistic is a person, a family, and often someone who has waited far too long. You have said, Cabinet Minister, that the system is beset by crisis. You’ve said patients and staff are being failed. You’ve said emergency departments are buckling. You’ve said corridor care is becoming normalised. You’ve said cancer is lagging behind. You’ve said the workforce is stressed and financial pressures are acute. On that assessment, Cabinet Minister, you are right. But here is the problem: you cannot diagnose a crisis and then prescribe another strategy. The people of Wales do not need another speech about renewal. They need treatment; they need appointments; they need operations; they need an ambulance to arrive on time, and they need to see a GP. The Welsh NHS doesn’t need any more slogans; it needs delivery. You talked about the spirit of Bevan. Well, Bevan did not build the NHS with a press release or something swanky on social media. He delivered it. And now that is the real test for you. And there are areas where we can agree. We support a health service free at the point of delivery. We support better prevention. We support GP services, faster cancer diagnosis, improved dementia support, proper support for unpaid carers, and a social care system that treats care workers with the respect that they deserve. But warm words will not be enough: Wales has had plans after plans, target after target and promise after promise, and what patients need now is a Government prepared to be judged on results. On waiting lists, you said the immediate priority is to tackle the backlog. You promised that two-year waits will be eliminated within a matter of months and the overall backlog will be reduced to pre-pandemic levels before the end of this Senedd term. So, let us have a straight answer today: how many months? Three, six, nine? Because 'within months' might sound good in a press release, but it means very little to someone who’s waiting in pain at home for their operation. On surgical and diagnostic hubs, I welcome the principle—high-volume elective care hubs can make a real difference in areas such as orthopaedics, ophthalmology and general surgery. But you said an expert group is being convened to develop a delivery plan for 10 hubs across four years. So, where will they be? Where will each one open? Who will staff them? And how will rural patients be able to access them? Because a hub without staff is just a sign on the door. Wales has had enough of announcements that sound big on the day and then disappear into a system never to appear again. On primary and GP care, Cabinet Minister, I want to put this to you directly, because I’ve sat with you in this Chamber, I’ve sat with you in committee, and I have heard you, time and time again, call for more support and more funding for primary care. You also backed the Health and Social Care Committee’s report in the previous Senedd on GP practices in Wales. Now you’re no longer asking the questions; you are the person who has to answer them. So, will you implement those recommendations in full: yes or no? On social care, you are right: too many people are stuck in hospital beds because care is not available in the community. That is bad for patients, bad for families and bad for the NHS. But a national care service must not become another expensive layer of bureaucracy. So, will you guarantee today that money will go to front-line care, not more boards, not more structures and not more administration in Cathays Park? On unpaid carers, Wales does rely on these every single day. They save our public purse billions of pounds. They feel invisible, exhausted and unsupported. And timely carers’ needs assessments are welcome, but they must lead to real support—respite, practical advice and emergency help when families need it—and we need that now, not months down the line. On cancer, you admitted Wales is lagging behind. That is a serious admission, and I agree with you: Wales does need a cancer action plan. So, I ask you: when will it be published? Is it going to include proper targets for diagnosis, for treatment, for outcomes? Let’s have the answer. On workforce, you said a long-term strategy will come in the autumn. Cabinet Minister, autumn is becoming this Welsh Government’s waiting room, isn’t it? Because everything you want to seem to be doing is going to be done in the autumn. We have staff pressures now; we have graduates worried about jobs, we have vacancies, now. What immediate action are you going to take before the autumn, because time is ticking? And on prevention, I agree with you. We cannot keep treating in a system that actually waits for people to become seriously ill before acting. Sport, physical activity, reducing obesity and making sure people stay healthy are very important. So, can you outline, Cabinet Secretary—no that's the previous name; Cabinet Minister—how you're going to make sure money flows? I'll come to the end now, Presiding Officer; I can see you looking at me. Cabinet Minister, you have the biggest job in Government. You have made big promises to the people of Wales, and I'll just tell you that we will be watching; the people of Wales will be watching. You asked for power; now it is your time to deliver. Diolch.
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First Minister, during the election campaign, a number of issues were raised by my constituents. One of the most prominent issues was the industrialisation of mid Wales by Bute Energy and Green GEN Cymru with their pylons and turbines. A number of your candidates, some of whom are sitting in here, and Ministers of your own Government, have called these proposals out and said that they need to be stopped. So, can you take the opportunity today to say that your Government will refuse planning applications that currently sit with Planning and Environment Decisions Wales? You did say that, if it sits right with the community, you will listen to them. The community overwhelmingly—the largest response PEDW ever had to a planning application—said it wasn't required. So, hopefully, you'll take that opportunity today to say that that application will be refused. The second issue was on cross-border care and my constituents in parts of Powys having their care delayed in England because the health board couldn't meet the funding requirements to pay for those operations. Your candidates again said that they supported calls that I and other people—previous colleagues like Russell George—made to make sure that we could get the care that people needed. So, can you take the opportunity today, First Minister, to outline that you stand with those communities in their fight against pylons and turbines, and to make sure that we get people having that care in England when they need it? They should not be delayed because we cannot meet the funding requirements that people need to get their operations done.
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Dan Thomas.
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